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Post by Boasting Toast on Aug 31, 2016 8:18:08 GMT
Now with items being gone, the creation of a new stagelist is in order.
The old stagelist is as follows:
Romeo Drive (Neutral)
Fat Boy (Neutral)
Medieval Chef (Neutral)
Gepetto's Workshop (Neutral)
Bean Stalk (Neutral)
Dragon's Hall (CP)
Giant's Table (CP)
Trophy Room (CP)
With items being gone, a few stages are opened up for competitive play. They were previously banned due to certain items being too strong or abusable. Those stages were:
Poison Apple Inn Bell Tower Kung Fu Dojo Mine Cart
In addition, we are going to have to say goodbye to our beloved Romeo Drive indefinitely, as the portals still yield items regardless of item spawns being disabled. If Kirby finds a way to fix this, we will revise the stagelist.
Here is my proposal:
Poison Apple Inn (Neutral)
Fat Boy (Neutral)
Gepetto's Workshop (Neutral)
Mine Cart (Neutral)
Bean Stalk (Neutral)
Kung Fu Dojo (CP)
Medieval Chef (CP)
Dragon's Hall (CP)
Bell Tower (CP)
Trophy Room (CP)
I will give my reasoning.
Our previous neutral list was decided upon due to having 2 flat stages (Medieval Chef and Gepetto's Workshop), 2 platform stages (Fat Boy and Bean Stalk), and 1 in between (Romeo Drive). Poison Apple Inn is a good mixture between both layouts, and is mid sized, so I think it would be the best choice in Romeo Drive's stead.
My reasoning behind moving Medieval Chef to CP and adding Mine Cart to the neutral list is due to Medieval Chef having a lot of throwable items and the chandelier, which gives certain characters a camping advantage. Mine Cart is a much more flat stage with the only distraction being the statue.
Kung Fu Dojo would be added to the CP list due to large size and both roof areas giving certain characters a camping or timeout advantage.
Bell Tower would be added to the CP list due to being very large and having a layout that could give certain characters a camping advantage. Instead of having a high ground advantage, this stage has a smaller lower area which could give characters with very good anti airs a safe haven where they wouldn't have to worry about projectiles. In this position you have the air grab advantage over your opponent, but an air grab would leave them in the pit with you, meaning camping here would not give you a large advantage. I think this is a very interesting dynamic that would be very interesting to expand upon.
I think Giant's Table should be removed from the stagelist due to being a waste of space. I think it basically functions as another neutral stage, with items being gone it doesn't really have a place as we already have the neutral spaces filled and it gives no significant counterpick advantage that would warrant it being on the CP list. This suggestion is the one I am on the ropes the most about, and I would really like input on this point.
Along with these changes, number stage bans between games would be increased to 2, and DSR (Inability to CP a stage you previously won on) would not be in effect during 3/5 sets.
Thank you for the read. Any input, good or bad, would be very much appreciated.
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Post by Rubbermaid on Aug 31, 2016 11:30:27 GMT
I agree with Medieval Chef being moved to counterpick for the reasons you stated, as well as the apparent redundancy of Giant's Table now that we have Mine Cart. I had hoped to see Bell Tower make it to the neutral list, although I can appreciate the want for Poison Apple Inn instead. All in all this is a very well thought out stage list, and I struggle to find good arguments for moving things around.
As a small request, once the rules post is updated with a new list, can you include both the items list and no-items list in parallel? Whilst I'm in favour of the change as netplayer, I understand that many people will be quite happy with the current rules and I think there's no harm in including a vanilla ruleset for playing on unmodded setups.
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Post by m0th64 on Aug 31, 2016 15:31:23 GMT
I think I can agree to this stage list, partially because I can't stand the layout of Medieval Chef and Giant's Table anyway, lmao. We should definitely keep a vanilla stage list as well though, until the scene settles down more. It's gonna be a slow process to transition our entire community to modded Shrek since not everyone plays online or can provide enough modded setups for a tournament.
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Post by Rubbermaid on Aug 31, 2016 16:17:00 GMT
Dragon's Hall still grants items (metal potion, ice wand) upon slams at the moment. I'll leave it up to discussion as to whether this is exploitable enough to warrant removing it for the time being.
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Post by Boasting Toast on Aug 31, 2016 16:19:46 GMT
To address that, yes, I will be leaving the vanilla ruleset on the ruleset thread in a spoiler, for use in a Heir 3 situation where equipment is limited. I do not, however, want people to think turning items off is simply "optional". Turning items off on console is as simple as dragging 2 files onto an SD card. Honestly, if push comes to shove, I would rather people use a PC as a setup than use a setup with items enabled. I don't want this turning out like Melee where certain tournaments had items and certain tournaments didn't and the scene was split between the two, if items being off is going to be the norm then I want to make the transition as quick and painlessly as possible.
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Post by Boasting Toast on Sept 1, 2016 3:22:18 GMT
I am compiling a list of all confirmed changes for each stage with the codes Kirby has provided. He released 2 more codes, "disable triggers" and "disable spitters". These codes affect the game in ways other than item spawns. Some of these changes may be beneficial, so I think these are things we can take under consideration in the future.
Disabling spitters essentially disables all Slam events, making it so when you get slammed, instead of flying and breaking something before respawning, you simply fly until you bounce off a wall and are put into knockdown. As much as I would love to disable the environment destruction, unfortunately it's not an option for this reason.
Dragon's Gate: The potion and fart wand still spawn in the middle. All other items are removed. The fireballs are also unaffected.
Poison Apple Inn: All items have been successfully removed.
Kung Fu Dojo: All items have been successfully removed.
Fat Boy: All items have been successfully removed.
Gepetto's Workshop: Getting Slammed into the fireplace causes a Cannon to drop. All other items have been successfully removed.
Medieval Chef: All items have been successfully removed. Disabling triggers causes the fireplace to not drain your Slam meter, however you are still put into knockdown.
Gingerbread Hizzle: Capsules still yield items when thrown. All other items have been successfully removed.
Potion Factory: Potions still spawn in the middle. Disabling triggers makes the pits not functional, causing you to fall out of the map completely, but due to the game's engine, when you fall off a map, you are teleported back to center stage. Certain characters can double jump before hitting the teleport boundary and walljump on the outside of the map until they run out of jumps and fall. All other items have been successfully removed.
Dragon's Hall: Blocks still yield items when thrown. All other items have been successfully removed.
Mine Cart: All items have been successfully removed.
Mongo: Slamming into Mongo still yields potions. All other items have been successfully removed.
Bell Tower: All items have been successfully removed.
Romeo Drive: Portals still yield items. Disabling triggers deactivates portals, meaning you cannot travel through them. All other items have been successfully removed.
Beanstalk: All items have been successfully removed.
Giant's Table: Slamming into the harp yields a fart wand. All other items have been successfully removed.
Trophy Room: All items have been successfully removed.
Kirby is working to see if he can remove the remaining ways to get items and make the game truly item free, so our best course of action would be to wait for him to tell us what our options are.
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Post by Rubbermaid on Sept 1, 2016 12:01:08 GMT
Gepetto's Workshop: Getting Slammed into the fireplace causes a Cannon to drop. All other items have been successfully removed. Disabling triggers causes the fireplace to not drain your Slam meter, however you are still put into knockdown.
Medieval Chef: All items have been successfully removed.
The note about the fireplace should be applied to MC and not GW - the Gepetto's fireplace never drains slam anyway.
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Post by Boasting Toast on Sept 1, 2016 22:12:54 GMT
Gepetto's Workshop: Getting Slammed into the fireplace causes a Cannon to drop. All other items have been successfully removed. Disabling triggers causes the fireplace to not drain your Slam meter, however you are still put into knockdown.
Medieval Chef: All items have been successfully removed.
The note about the fireplace should be applied to MC and not GW - the Gepetto's fireplace never drains slam anyway. Thank you for the correction.
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Post by m0th64 on Sept 2, 2016 18:17:57 GMT
Even if we could disable environment destruction without creating full-match infinites I don't think it's a good idea because stage destruction is a central part of the identity of this game and doesn't have any real impact on gameplay outside of the portals on romeo drive, which we can ban the stage or disable through other hacks.
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Post by Rubbermaid on Sept 6, 2016 23:30:41 GMT
In my heart I think that the single metal potion in Poison Apple Inn in shouldn't be enough to move it from the neutral list. The barrels only tend to free up after a fairly chunky number of slams, so most (if not all) of the friendlies I've played on this stage haven't even seen the item appear. Only problem I see is that because the item presents itself fairly late into the game, the timer is likely to be pretty low if a player manages to grab it and an item like the metal potion definitely helps if you're trying to run down the timer (if only for ten seconds or so). I really wouldn't consider this to be either a common or a concerning occurrence though.
Obviously the choice is up to TOs, but I think that the item can just be written off as a quirk of the stage. The cases of Giant's Table and Gepetto's are a bit more annoying, but I'm holding on hope that we'll find a way to remove on-slam items by the end of the year.
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Post by m0th64 on Sept 7, 2016 5:36:33 GMT
In my heart I think that the single metal potion in Poison Apple Inn in shouldn't be enough to move it from the neutral list. The barrels only tend to free up after a fairly chunky number of slams, so most (if not all) of the friendlies I've played on this stage haven't even seen the item appear. Only problem I see is that because the item presents itself fairly late into the game, the timer is likely to be pretty low if a player manages to grab it and an item like the metal potion definitely helps if you're trying to run down the timer (if only for ten seconds or so). I really wouldn't consider this to be either a common or a concerning occurrence though. Obviously the choice is up to TOs, but I think that the item can just be written off as a quirk of the stage. The cases of Giant's Table and Gepetto's are a bit more annoying, but I'm holding on hope that we'll find a way to remove on-slam items by the end of the year. I agree. For the time being I think Gepetto's should be allowed to stay as well so we can do proper suspect testing on it.
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Post by Boasting Toast on Sept 15, 2016 5:14:24 GMT
After Sorzan and I talked for a while, I have a new stagelist proposal.
Poison Apple Inn (Neutral)
Fat Boy (Neutral)
Gepetto's Workshop (Neutral)
Mine Cart (Neutral)
Bean Stalk (Neutral)
Kung Fu Dojo (CP)
Medieval Chef (CP)
Bell Tower (CP)
My reason for omitting Dragon's Hall is it is too favorable for camp heavy characters. Being one of 3 counterpicks that are very large, camping would be too strong. Trophy Room is out because the trophies are simply not fit for competition in my opinion. They never break, get in the way of the camera, and a lot of the time interfere with grabs which is really frustrating. Medieval Chef plays the same role of having a stair section to protect you from grounded grabs as it causes them to automatically air throw, and having a lot of throwing items to stuff aggressive approaches, but they are actually destroyed on impact and don't interfere with gameplay. Also the chandelier is cool too.
This would revert us back to 1 stage ban.
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Post by m0th64 on Sept 17, 2016 16:23:20 GMT
After Sorzan and I talked for a while, I have a new stagelist proposal.
Poison Apple Inn (Neutral)
Fat Boy (Neutral)
Gepetto's Workshop (Neutral)
Mine Cart (Neutral)
Bean Stalk (Neutral)
Kung Fu Dojo (CP)
Medieval Chef (CP)
Bell Tower (CP)
My reason for omitting Dragon's Hall is it is too favorable for camp heavy characters. Being one of 3 counterpicks that are very large, camping would be too strong. Trophy Room is out because the trophies are simply not fit for competition in my opinion. They never break, get in the way of the camera, and a lot of the time interfere with grabs which is really frustrating. Medieval Chef plays the same role of having a stair section to protect you from grounded grabs as it causes them to automatically air throw, and having a lot of throwing items to stuff aggressive approaches, but they are actually destroyed on impact and don't interfere with gameplay. Also the chandelier is cool too.
This would revert us back to 1 stage ban. This sounds right. DSR back on?
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Post by Boasting Toast on Sept 19, 2016 2:30:54 GMT
After Sorzan and I talked for a while, I have a new stagelist proposal.
Poison Apple Inn (Neutral)
Fat Boy (Neutral)
Gepetto's Workshop (Neutral)
Mine Cart (Neutral)
Bean Stalk (Neutral)
Kung Fu Dojo (CP)
Medieval Chef (CP)
Bell Tower (CP)
My reason for omitting Dragon's Hall is it is too favorable for camp heavy characters. Being one of 3 counterpicks that are very large, camping would be too strong. Trophy Room is out because the trophies are simply not fit for competition in my opinion. They never break, get in the way of the camera, and a lot of the time interfere with grabs which is really frustrating. Medieval Chef plays the same role of having a stair section to protect you from grounded grabs as it causes them to automatically air throw, and having a lot of throwing items to stuff aggressive approaches, but they are actually destroyed on impact and don't interfere with gameplay. Also the chandelier is cool too.
This would revert us back to 1 stage ban. This sounds right. DSR back on? DSR would be fine, just not in 3/5, obviously.
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